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  #1  
Unread 10-19-2012, 01:36 PM
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magill magill is offline
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FYI - Interesting position by Turbine

Since Turbine has encountered nothing but troubles following the RoR release and the subsequent Hotfix, they have become quite militant in their demands to "Disable all plugins."

In the new "Official discussion: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Oct-17-Hotfix)
Post #16 by Mirthgar from Turbine Customer Techincal Support is instructive...

Quote:
Mirthgar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
ALL plugins.You should be running no plugins. Disable them all.
I'll add to this, anyone encountering issues disabling plugins, or even with them disabled are still running into issues, on occasion it's necessary to remove all plugin related files. There is an easy way to test the game with no plugins or files relating to them at all:

Click on the Windows "Start" button > "Documents" (My Documents on XP) find and rename the folder 'The Lord of the Rings Online' to "OLDThe Lord of the Rings Online" and relaunch.

Remember to include your dxdiag's folks as noted in the OP.
Of course, the one particularly interesting side effect of this action is to eliminate your UserPreferences.ini file.... creating a new one for you with all defaults.
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  #2  
Unread 10-19-2012, 01:53 PM
bsmorgan bsmorgan is offline
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If the client is crashing, it does help to know what is causing the crash. I have no problems with disabling all plugins to see if that eliminates the crash. What I don't agree with is having just one thread for crashes (without plugins). There should be two threads, one for crashes without plugins and one for crashes because of plugins. Different information needs to be gathered for each type of crash and obviously different solutions for each.

I also have a problem with the attitudes of some of the Turbine employees. Plugins should not be treated as warts to be removed. The "sandbox" that plugins play in is provided by Turbine. The "sandbox" should not leak "sand" and cause the client to crash. Turbine is just as responsible for fixing the "sandbox" as they are fixing the playground in which it sits.

Brad

Last edited by bsmorgan : 10-20-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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  #3  
Unread 10-19-2012, 04:48 PM
Stever1388 Stever1388 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmorgan
If the client is crashing, it does help to know what is causing the crash. I have no problems with disabling all plugins to see if that eliminates the crash. What I don't agree with is having just one thread for crashes (without plugins). There should be two threads, one for crashes without plugins and one for crashes because of plugins. Different information needs to be gathered for each type of crash and obviously different solutions for each.

I also have a problem with the attitudes of some of the Turbine employees. Plugins should not be treated as warts to be removed. The "sandbox" that plugins play in is provided by Turbine. The "sandbox" should not leak "sand" and cause the client to crash. Turbine is just a responsible for fixing the "sandbox" as they are fixing the playground in which it sits.

Brad
They get around this by saying Plugins are Beta features, and thus they don't have to hold them to the same standard that you'd expect from Live features (like raids, instances, crafting, game performance).

The 2nd thread about plugins crashing should happen in the Plugins forums so that the authors can find out what is causing the crash so they can work around it and tell Turbine what is going on. Turbine doesn't have many resources on Plugins so they won't actively be fixing a problem.

It does suck, but it's the way it is. We either have Plugins with little to no support, or we don't have plugins at all.
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  #4  
Unread 10-20-2012, 08:57 AM
scrappy scrappy is offline
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has anybody identified the plugins that are causing the crashes?
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  #5  
Unread 10-20-2012, 09:50 AM
bsmorgan bsmorgan is offline
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I have identified AltInventory. I have also fixed AltInventory to crash much less often by removing the output to chat in the unload function. I say much less often because it is apparently still crashing for some people with the line removed. Its working for me with this one line change.

I attempted to collect information in the Turbine General forums but the thread very quickly gets buried with all the activity there. I guess I could remove the tutorial I wrote on how to find the "guilty party" using a binary search and just post something in the Lua thread or we could do it here. Which place do you think is best?

Brad

Last edited by bsmorgan : 10-20-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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  #6  
Unread 10-20-2012, 07:10 PM
scrappy scrappy is offline
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i've played around with my plugin, and I cannot get my game to crash when only my plugin (predict in game time) is loaded... but lotro does crash when i have all my usual plugins loaded, altinventory, buffbars, tonicbars, minstrelbuffs, travelwindow, raidhelper, and others.

if there's some code or an algorithm to find problem plugins, then please post a link to the info. I love my plugins, and i hate unloading ALL plugins (see Sapience's comments above) when only 1 or a few are having issues. :/
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  #7  
Unread 10-20-2012, 09:25 PM
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Wicked Mouse Wicked Mouse is offline
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I only use Wallet and Tonic Bars regularly. I haven't had any crashes anymore after the hotfix. So the ones I had probably involved DX10/11.
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  #8  
Unread 10-21-2012, 09:25 AM
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D.H1cks D.H1cks is offline
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I thought they built in a ripcord ability so if they suspect plugins are causing a problem, they can force all the clients to disable plugins. If they really think plugins are a problem, then they should do that just to make sure.
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  #9  
Unread 10-22-2012, 02:33 PM
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magill magill is offline
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The problem is NOT plugins.

Turbine has a SERIOUS memory management issue with RoR. They have had it since Beta 1.

The simple explanation is -- the LOTRO Client (both Windows and Mac) is a 32 bit client.

A 32 bit client cannot address (legitimately) more than 4 GB of memory.

Prior to RoR, the client was below the threshold where it became an issue, unless you were trying to run Ultra-High Graphics...

With RoR the issue has become acute. The client skates very close to the 3.7 GB limit (the other 3 meg goes to OS "stuff"). Issues exist with Zoning -- moving from one land block to another; going inside from outside; entering towns; swift travel; Session Play. These are when people crash pretty routinely.

Plugins use memory. One assumes that the Lua environment is not a static memory allocation, but a dynamic one. AltInventory can use a LOT of memory, depending on how many toons you have and how much information you are letting it keep. So it does't surprise me that people have fingered it as a "problem."

RoR is basically a completely new client. Awesomium is now being used to*display all of the NPC dialogs, Store Windows, Quest windows, etc. Mounted Combat requires a lot of overhead that was not required before. Graphics have been enhanced and converted to OpenGL.

Turbine is going to have to come up with a new set of "minimum system statements", which are likely going to be defined by things like... if you run XP you can't use more than Medium Graphics, can't use DX10 or DX11 no matter what graphics card you have ... If you want Very High or Ultra High graphics, you need a 64 bit OS... if you want DX10 or DX11, you need a Viper... etc.

Will Turbine come up with a new 64 bit client? -- meaning it can ONLY run on a 64 bit OS... it might have to. Will they admit that LOTRO no longer runs on a 32 OS? .... stay tuned.
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Bill Magill Mac Player
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Val - Man Minstrel (107)
Valalin - Dwarf Minsrel (69)
Valamar - Dwarf Hunter (118)
Valanne - Beorning (105)
Valhad - Elf LM (65)
Valkeeper - Elf RK (85)
Valdicta - Dwarf RK (105)
Valwood - Dwarf RK (80)

Valhunt - Dwarf Hunter (68)
Ninth - Man Warden (65)

"Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!"

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  #10  
Unread 10-23-2012, 06:16 AM
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Rrys Rrys is offline
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Memory Leak

Perhaps at 64 bit client is the answer. But their memory leak is a problem on both 32 bit and 64 bit OS's. Even on ones where memory is not a problem at all.

Or, when is a leak not a leak, but a paging problem? The client gets all the memory it can eat, but wants more. So paging/thrashing becomes the issue. I haven't had a crash problem since 8.0.1 patch. But even with no LUA UIs, and DX9, I eventually reach the point where the lurching (most noticeable on war-steeds running all out in Rohan) begins. It remains playable, but very annoying and the graphics glitches when zoning (in and out of buildings becomes noticeable). And via Task Manager you can watch the memory usage climb and climb and climb.

But, I think I'll turn paging back on and see if that makes a difference.

Machine details: 64 bit Win7 Pro, 16g memory, primary drive 128 GB ssd, Intel i7-3770K Processor, two stock 560GTX in SLI mode, no overclocking.
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