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  #21  
Unread 10-01-2010, 08:04 AM
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Grim Grim is offline
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You make some very good points for your argument rush and I had planned on trading blows with you on it. However, it just comes down to personal play style and what we want and enjoy in a game. I believe that guessing games are not what make encounters enjoyable. The encounter mechanics make the encounters enjoyable.

Last edited by Grim : 10-01-2010 at 08:09 AM.
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  #22  
Unread 10-01-2010, 08:24 AM
rushl rushl is offline
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The irony of all this is that I'm currently working on a system whereby a solo player can run through old pen-and-paper RPG modules - and a key component of the system is Threat.

Of course, in my instance, the player will know what his threat levels are. After all, you can't hide information from yourself. My system is a long way off, but I plan on using a card draw mechanic to acquire and remove Threat from the PCs.

Now, if only I can finish working out the "AI" behavior. I'm trying to find something simple enough that it can be done quickly by hand, yet complex enough to make the encounters interesting and engaging...



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  #23  
Unread 10-01-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushl
That's exaggerating the argument. Sure, getting rid of all informational displays would increase difficulty. But being as difficult as possible isn't the goal here. There's a balance between too hard and too easy - and we want to stay in the middle of that. Getting rid of all information makes things too hard. Threat meters makes things too easy. Ergo, keep the information we have now, and don't add Threat meters.
Except that balance is completely and entirely subjective. Personally I don't need response indicators to know when my crit chain is unlocked - and I really don't need to know my focus, or other various bits of information the game gives me already - once you play a character enough, you get a feel for exactly what the situation is. Heck, I can tell if I crit on a bow attack just by the sound. However, it's reassuring to see the numbers if you want them - and that is one part of why some people want meters. Not to make the game easier - but to simply be informed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rushl
This could be true to an extent - but we have knowledge of what adding Threat meters has done to other games. Therefore, we know the difference between having it and not, and most people believe that not is better.
First off let's call a spade, a spade. Meters did not "ruin" any game - at most they ruined the game for certain people - but I'm pretty sure those other games are still running along quite well. The problem boils down to the fact that whatever game you had a bad experience with meters in, was because the majority wanted to use them. Most likely due to how competitive and deep the end game was. Sure, you'll get some ex WoW players in here that want to live and die by the addon - but you're going to be hard pressed to find that same form of "necessity" here. This game is not going to attract the hardcore set, nor keep them here for very long. LotRO doesn't really have an endgame - at least in the sense that you have to raid to get the best gear. Heck, that can be gotten with three man groups right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rushl
Perhaps that's true, but if Threat weren't a key factor in most encounters, people wouldn't be asking for meters. If Threat were removed as a factor in an encounter, and knowing it didn't make things easier or harder, I don't think people would care if there was a meter. It's like asking to know your hobbit's shoe size. If the data doesn't affect the game, there's no harm in knowing it. I believe however that Threat is a key component to most encounters (well, group ones anyway). That's why some are asking for a meter.
Well that's a bit of a reach - to say something is a key factor, just because people want more information about it. Sure, it's obviously important to them - but is it important to them because the success of their group hinges on it, or they just want the extra information? There seems to be this underlying fallacy that shows up whenever meters are discussed, that anybody who wants X meter, only does so because they can't play the game without it. Sometimes its just wanting to see your performance, to see exactly how good you're doing. Obviously if a hunter is running in strength stance with 4 deep on Bowmaster, and you manage to keep aggro - then you're doing a really good job. But in a game based on numbers, it's not hard to understand why some want the numbers to prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rushl
I have no doubt that if we're given access to that data we'll see a meter in minutes. I would also be inclined to believe that if Turbine gives us that data, then it would be a statement that they didn't think Threat management was a key component to the game. Essentially, it's on them to determine exactly how important Threat is. Unless they can be convinced that it's not a key component, our discussion is largely academic.

rushl
And that really is my main point - What is significant, or would make the game too easy or not, is really up for Turbine to decide. Anything else is just opinion and experience in other games.
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  #24  
Unread 10-01-2010, 10:48 AM
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I knew this would become a popular thread .. what a surprise hehe
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  #25  
Unread 10-01-2010, 03:31 PM
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How about a different perspective on this? That of the minstrel trying to keep the group alive. To me, it is a whole different perspective on threat than that of the hunter or the guard. This thread has been focusing primarily on the threat generated by the hunter. What about healing aggro? As a healer, I have so many things to pay attention to that a threat meter for me would be HUGE! Unfortunately, I usually don't pay too much attention to threat because if I stop healing because of that, someone usually dies. Too often, it is me that dies because I am too focused on keeping others alive.

I realize that at this point, threat meters are a non-issue because they can't be done but from a healers point of view, I would love to have one! But we could just say I'm a lousy healer and be done with it ... although I do the best that I can!
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  #26  
Unread 10-01-2010, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corhub
Unfortunately, I usually don't pay too much attention to threat because if I stop healing because of that, someone usually dies. Too often, it is me that dies because I am too focused on keeping others alive.
I guess you answered your argument yourself hehe

In Lotro healers would have little use of Threat meter just because you can't wait for threat to lower while for example tank is dying, you just need to heal and hope for the best (and for a force taunt if you see a balrog running towards you )

In vanilla-wow that was a bit different when you had 40 player raids with 10 healers. There you could and sometimes had to take it easy and let others heal for a change.
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  #27  
Unread 10-01-2010, 07:43 PM
Justin12221 Justin12221 is offline
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Well, usually when I'm tanking, I just use my threat generators on a powerful foe until I see it turn around and start attacking me.
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  #28  
Unread 10-02-2010, 01:38 AM
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MrJackdaw MrJackdaw is offline
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It always fascinates me - whenever talk of threat meters comes up there is always a huge argument. I can see the position on both sides of this, but fall firmly on the "No please" side - and for an odd reason.

I already find myself watching various meters - Cooldowns on skills, health, power, reactions etc. Give me another bar and I probably would hardly look at the game itself at all! That is why with my action bar plugins I like the ability to fade bars. I would love to be able to fade out even more, to give myself more of an immersive experience.

Tactically, threat is about gaining a feel for the fight and how it is going, and that is a skill. Right now without DPS meters and such the pressure to perform 'perfectly' is low - add these to the game and I feel it would ruin part of it for me.

And a personal hate? Those monsters that seem to aggro dump every five seconds and you have no way of keeping threat. I seem to remember the attack on Bree skirmish having that at the end. Damn irritating as the tank - makes me feel like a faliure!
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  #29  
Unread 10-02-2010, 01:49 AM
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The "perform perfectly" part is very true. I watched a rogue get kicked from a guild for not having his DPS high enough after we downed Anub. We completely smashed ToC, but the rouge's DPS was not numerically up to what the guild leader thought was satisfactory and he kicked him....it was just messed up.

Not only did I realize that the GL was an ass clown, but I saw why the meters were complete trash...

Last edited by daimon : 10-02-2010 at 04:29 AM.
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  #30  
Unread 10-02-2010, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olenn
The "perform perfectly" part is very true. I watched a rogue get kicked from a guild for not having his DPS high enough after we downed Anub. We completely smashed ToC, but the rouge's DPS was not numerically up to what the guild leader thought was satisfactory and he kicked him....it was just messed up.

Not only did I realize that the GL was an ass clown, but I saw why the meters were complete trash...
ups sorry Olenn accidently edited your post as the damn edit button is so much looking alike (don't worry I didn't cencor your post in anyway).

Just wanted to add there's nothing special about that. That happened a lot with HC raiding guilds. I don't know if it's still the same but at least it was in the past
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