A time for honesty

[Digital_Utopia]

I didn't want to make this thread, as it would be far easier to continue what I have been doing the last month or so; but the easy thing is seldom the right thing to do - and this is no exception.

Basically, I'm done with LotRO. I'm not the type to leave "I quit!" threads in forums, and this is no exception; but I've obviously done more here than simply play the game, so it's only fair to let those of you who use my creations know. To be honest, I really haven't played the game since a couple of weeks after RoI was released, and while I thought it was a solid expansion, it wasn't enough to rekindle my interest in playing it. I honestly thought though, that my admiration of Turbine, and the enjoyment I've had with creating LotRO related projects would continue to carry me through. Unfortunately it's well past the time where I know this isn't going to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of admiration for Turbine, LotRO, and of course, the community. I admit that maybe I expected too much - the same mistake countless of other players have done with the game itself. While I can't control those expectations, or the frustrations I've felt as a result of that, the end result is still the same. I no longer have the patience to put up with, in my opinion, Turbine shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe Turbine will fix and improve the data API. Maybe they'll start to actually put some much needed focus to the plugin system. I really do hope that's true - this game deserves the tools and utilities that could make use of it. Sadly, I'm done playing the wait and see game, and it's time for me to move on.

As far as my projects go, any developer is more than welcome to use the code as they see fit, or provide a similar offering. Credit (if applicable) would be appreciated; but it's certainly not necessary. It's more important to me that the community continues to take advantage of the niche these projects filled. Again, I really didn't want it to come down to this - I would've rather continued to improve and update these projects all the way to Mordor and beyond. It just finally got to the point where I couldn't bear to put forth the effort, as it was no longer fun and became a chore.

I will monitor this thread for the next week or so, and reply to any questions anybody might have. After that point, please feel free to email any questions or comments to [email protected], and I'll try to respond to the best of my ability.

Thank you all for the support you've given me, and I wish LotRO and you the best.

[Dwamur]

Thank you for all the effort you put in! Have fun out there. Certainly, when a game starts feeling like a job, it's time to take a break.

Do you have a "thoughts on direction" document for your plugins? Something that will make it easy for someone else to take over, that lists todos, bugs, features-I-will-implement-when-Turbine-fixes-the-API, you get the idea.

If there are volunteers, maybe your plugins can be given to new caretakers' hands. That'd be preferable to letting them whither and die, I think.

All the best
Dwamur

[Digital_Utopia]

Thank you for all the effort you put in! Have fun out there. Certainly, when a game starts feeling like a job, it's time to take a break.

Do you have a "thoughts on direction" document for your plugins? Something that will make it easy for someone else to take over, that lists todos, bugs, features-I-will-implement-when-Turbine-fixes-the-API, you get the idea.

If there are volunteers, maybe your plugins can be given to new caretakers' hands. That'd be preferable to letting them whither and die, I think.

All the best
Dwamur

First off, thank you for your well wishes; however I feel the need to clarify that it was the projects themselves that started feeling like a job, rather than the game itself. As for the game, the best I could describe it is that there's very little variety, and the strongest part of the game is a retelling of a story we already know the ending to.

As far as my projects go, most things are pretty straightforward - at least in terms of naming of variables,functions and whatnot. So anybody looking over it shouldn't have any problems with following along. That being said, Palantir's main code is better off being rewritten from scratch. The structure could be far, far better - although the bar code itself - which really, is the trickiest part, should be easily reused for any code.

If anybody knows flash/ActionScript, and is interested on taking over the Adobe AIR character journal, send me an email, and I'll give you the .fla file for it.

I really do hope that someone carries these ideas forward, someone with far more patience with Turbine, as the community does deserve these tools, and I'd honestly see these things done by a different author, than to have my ideas die with my interest.

[unclecid]

sorry to see ya go but i completely understand, i myself have been reduced to just logging on during fests and whenever there is a addition to the Epic line, heck i have not even bought roi yet.

anyways, thanks for the time you devoted, i have liked Palantir and wont play without it since you first showed it (way back on Isengard iirc).

:D

[Cordeval]

Thank you too much for all you've done!
(colloquial south Louisiana there)

Palantir has been and still is a beautifully useful enhancement to my game experience.
As to your comment that coding the bars is where the real meat is, do you mean the curable indicators? Popup cures? Or the morale/power level bars?

It's Palantir's morale and power bars I count on and hope someone can maintain them in future LOTRO updates...or that I can learn enough LUA to fix it for myself when Turbine breaks it.

[Garan]

Sorry to see ya go, you've been a long time contributer and have had a positive impact on the growth of Lua plugins. Unfortunately, I can definately understand how you feel about your fun projects turning into work. Are you planning to move on to a different game or do you plan to just step back and take a relaxing break from gaming?

[Cairenn]

:(

Going to miss you, Digital. I understand, and can very much relate, to why you are feeling the need to move on. When a 'hobby' done for fun starts to feel like 'work' that you are dreading, it's time to take a break or move on completely.

Hopefully we'll see you in another game somewhere down the road? Regardless, safe travels, be well, and be happy.

[MrJackdaw]

Many thanks for your work Digital!

Mayhaps, when that halcyon day occurs, you will return to the fold...

[Digital_Utopia]

Sorry to see ya go, you've been a long time contributer and have had a positive impact on the growth of Lua plugins. Unfortunately, I can definately understand how you feel about your fun projects turning into work. Are you planning to move on to a different game or do you plan to just step back and take a relaxing break from gaming?

If anything, my one hope is that I've helped other authors see that Lua and the API is more than just the sum of its parts. Don't get me wrong, I still stand by my opinion that Lua is an ugly, ugly language - but that doesn't mean it's a bad one. I think above all else, one of the main sources of my frustrations were not just with Turbine taking so long to release (bug free) API additions; but rather, I saw the potential of what could be done, if Turbine would only do their part. Then I started noticing that this was a trend - and from there, well...the rest is history.

As far as another game goes, yes. I've gone back to playing WoW. No matter how much I like Tolkien's world, and how much Turbine has done it justice, in the end, it boiled down to a comparison of the features and content I enjoyed. In that regard, WoW was the clear winner. It just had gotten to the point where I felt that I had some kind of obligation to continue playing - or at least working on LotRO projects, if for no other reason than the amount of time I had invested. And frankly, that's just a really stupid reason to continue to be involved in a game.

As far as future projects go, I've got no current plans to become involved in WoW addons or apps. Mostly due to just having fun with the game itself; but frankly, there's not a lot out there that someone hasn't done already. Also, starting this summer, I'm going to be going to school for a web development certificate, so that will further limit my time for any extra projects. That being said and knowing me, I'm certainly not going to say that it isn't going to happen either. So don't be surprised if I wind up on WoWInterface at some point :P

If any of you are "heathens" like me, and don't view WoW as the work of the devil, you can find me on Proudmoore-US, Horde side. Feel free to hit me up! I'll always be happy to hear from you guys! Also, admittedly, I am a forum junkie - so don't be surprised if I stop in here from time to time to comment as well :p

[MrJackdaw]

No matter how much I like Tolkien's world, and how much Turbine has done it justice, in the end, it boiled down to a comparison of the features and content I enjoyed. In that regard, WoW was the clear winner. It just had gotten to the point where I felt that I had some kind of obligation to continue playing...

Funnily enough, I just tried WoW again and really hated it compared to lotro! I went through the exact opposite of your predicament a few years ago - feeling like I was obligated to play WoW but wanted to play lotro, then made the switch. Funny how things work ain't it?

NOTE: Not trying to start a "Lotro is better than WoW" or vice-versa flame war!

[Uthboth]

Going to miss you Digital Utopia as Palantir has been the bread and butter for me since it first came out. I've pointed a few others to it that have fallen in love with it, but there is still so much more potential if Turbine would just open up more of the API to the users. There have been other projects of yours that I have enjoyed as well. You will be missed, but I do understand why it's time to step away.

I myself have been playing Lotro on the side. Right now Firefall and World of Tanks has been my main game while waiting for content in Lotro. I've steped away from working on my plugin as it was starting to turn into work fixing changes they made. The ui is easier to work on then LUA, but it's still a chore if you don't fully understand everything. Not much of a coder, but if I have something to follow I do alright.

Take care and I wish you the best with school. As parting I shall leave you with this.

Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under mountains in the moon.

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star,
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.

Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_%28song%29)

[K1R4D3L]

Adding my voice to the "sorry to see you go" mantra. Our recent discussion about LotROMaps is really just a perfect example of your frustration, and I obviously share it. The limitations/frustrations I read about and experience as a plugin consumer are the primary reason I haven't done any authoring myself...full of ideas, but no patience to deal with a sub-par API. Sad to see so much potential wasted...too bad there aren't any good community-developed game engine projects - the gaming community could really get behind something like that. Maybe an Elder Scrolls MMO will get it right....

I still love the game, and given my play style I still have plenty of game left to keep me engaged for quite some time yet, but knowing what's possible interface-wise in games like WoW and what should be possible with modern technology (multiple monitors, meaningful mobile device tie-ins, etc.), it does get rather disappointing to see Turbine seemingly focused entirely on selling more of the same content, rather than updating the engine and ecosystem.

Best of luck to you, and maybe one day Turbine will get the message and convince you that it's time to come back. :)

[Dwamur]

I'll play advocatus diaboli. Turbine is unlikely to devote a full fte, or even half one, to the api. Lotro does not compete with wow, nowhere close. Last figure I saw put lotro active players at 100k. Old data, but unless turbine feel like releasing more its all we have. That makes lotro a niche mmo. To increase retention, bring back old players, attract new ones, where are your ftes best deployed? Api is going to be low on that list.

I see a steadily improving labor of love by the devs, within the constraints of the content work that has to be the 'day job'. No complaints from me.

Soooo - volunteers to take on palantir maintenance? I love that hud.

[K1R4D3L]

Certainly understand the argument, and agree to some extent. As I said I've still got plenty of content ahead of me to keep me engaged, and the game has steadily improved to a large degree over the years. However, Digital isn't the first active player and community member that we've lost recently. The growing sentiment I hear is that the content additions just aren't enough to keep people engaged anymore.

I say spend one dev cycle enhancing and stabilizing the API to allow the devoted fan community to enhance the game ourselves, then go back to content, content, content. So many of us are willing to do the work for them, we just need the API to make it possible. I think that's a pretty reasonable strategy for them from a business perspective.

*shrug* Just a game though...I'll play until I get bored, dev if I ever get inspired, and eventually I'll move on.

[Dwamur]

Kiradel,

I hear your argument. You're saying "take one dev, or half a dev, and devote her to API improvement until U7. We'll take it from there."

Okay. That's a good argument. Now - let me take this seriously and ask: How can something come of it? Is the plugin author community coherent enough to act on this vision?

One possible action would be a marketing drive. Create a website, with content created by plugin authors, that acts as marketing. "Here is what we have done. Isn't it cool? Here's what we could do. It's even better! We'll do it for free. We need you, Turbine, to do this" (and "this" should link to a page with highly detailed, highly technical action items that a manager can give to a dev to implement immediately).

Then, once the site has been up for a while and has good, engaging content, including humorous videos - keep in mind, this would be a marketing effort, so it has to be light-hearted and positive - set a day during which plugin authors will advertise in-game. Plugins will already have been coded to display a message in chat when they start on that day, and every hour thereafter (details TBD, provided you can get date/time from the API and the community doesn't come up with something better), to the effect of "we are ready to make this game even funner and more full of bacon, for free! Turbine, do your part and enable us to do this. www.moarbacon.org".

How about it, plugin authors? Is this a bunch of trollshaw lynxes that cannot be herded under any circumstances, or can the authoring community rally behind a marketing push?

[Renegade-Rivers]

Just wanted to say that I have appreciated your work on Palantir and it has become over the months an interface I used faithfully. I just hope that someone will pick up the dev. on it.

As for your decision to go back to WoW, i don't envy you a bit. I played Wow for over four years, and it became a grind. How ever I remember a time when frustration ran high in WoW as well, especially when all of the accounts were getting hacked, which happened to me, and was why I gave up on it. Hopefully their security is better at this point.

As for LOTRO, I can understand your discontent, but I do believe that down the road we will see some improvements, because it is going to have to happen in order for Turbine to keep their product fresh. RoR may help bring back some players, and add some new ones at the same time. I look for a big recruitment drive about the time of the release of RoR. Hopefully it will be done in a way that will excite returning players, and encourage new ones to try LOTRO.

There is no doubt that their is a lot of things that could be improved in LOTRO and make it a much better, and more powerful game. Whether Turbine will have the foresight to see this, or whether they will attempt to continue to use LOTRO as a "cash cow" remains to be seen.

There are many interface improvements that I would love to see made, and of course in many cases, the materials to work with need to be supplied by Turbine, and LOTRO, but whether that will be done or not remains to be seen. I keep hoping that there will be a solution that will make it possible to make an efficient auction interface, and one for crafting projects as well, however those are only wishes.

Once again I wish you the very best in your game play, and hope that you find the joy and relaxation you are looking for going back to WoW. We will miss you being a part of the LOTRO community, and of course you have all of our best wishes. Until we met again, may all your paths be safe, and may all your wishes be granted.

[Digital_Utopia]

Thanks everybody for the well wishes, and Uthboth for the lyrics posting. That sums it up nicely I think. I'm certainly not saying I'm never coming back - never is such a final word, and time is never final. I just had to admit that instead of continuing to lead people on, it was just best to say that, for the foreseeable future, I was completely done with the game.

That being said, I do feel the need to clarify something, as I've gotten the feeling that some have mistaken my frustrations with Turbine's actions, and my loss of interest in the game, as criticisms against Turbine and LotRO as a whole. With that in mind I want to say that I have nothing but the utmost respect for Turbine, and the dedication they've given and still give to LotRO to bring Middle Earth to life, within the confines of an MMO. I did not lose interest in LotRO because of the store, or because I thought the game was inferior in quality to another. If anything, it simply boiled down to the fact that I was no longer the player they were developing for.

One of the main responses on the LotRO forums to someone suggesting more attention to PvP, better gear in raids, or such oddities as flying mounts (for lack of a better example), is that LotRO isn't that type of game - and I completely agree with that assessment. So instead of trying, or attempting to suggest that LotRO should change to fit my style of play, or what's important to me in an MMO, I simply found an MMO that was a better fit.

So really, there's no reason to play devil's advocate, because I realize my frustrations were of my own making. For example, if you want a cat to bark, and you get frustrated because it isn't, it's not the cat's fault; but yours for expecting it to be able to.

@Dwamur

To be honest, I really don't think this is a case of Turbine not caring about plugins; rather, it's a case of just way too few devs. Deep down, I think they want the same things we do - based off of some of the responses I've gotten from the devs and Sapience regarding Palantir (and other experiments). The trouble is, that when compared to the game itself- these are side projects, stuff created by the devs on their own free time, and not under the same structure (for better of for worse) as actual game content/stability/improvements.

The only real solution is for WB to hire more devs for LotRO, so that Turbine has the flexibility to devote resources to things like the data API and the plugin system. While that would net a vast improvement - maybe something fairly close to WoW's plugin functionality, and a data API closer to this (http://blizzard.github.com/api-wow-docs/#idp58120), that alone won't make things as great as they could be. Unfortunately that requires more than what Turbine could do - as it will need to come from the community itself.

It's one thing to look at Blizzard's data API, or addon API and point to how a developer that has the ability to devote the necessary resources, can improve the out of game experience for their players. However, it's quite another to see something like this site [url=http://www.pxr.dk/wowdev/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page] that pretty much gives detailed information about every single file type the game uses. Everything from terrain, world objects, meshes, animations, textures, etc. That didn't come from Blizzard, that's the result of people with the necessary skills being fans of the game. Unfortunately, I've yet to meet anybody like that who plays this game. I've certainly tried my best - with my limited knowledge/experience; but it would probably be years before I made any sort of serious headway.

[K1R4D3L]

Some of us are just venting, to be sure...hijacking your thread to an extent to make a point. If we didn't like the game, we obviously wouldn't be here either. Completely agree with your barking cat metaphor. Apart from the API, I'm actually perfectly willing to accept the game for what it is, and isn't, feature-wise, knowing that Turbine will continue to slowly evolve and expand it, both in terms of pure content and minor features/capabilities. You'll never hear me whining about this or that missing game feature...like you said, it is what it is.

I do see the plugin/API platform a bit differently though - this is Turbine's opportunity to engage the community, to invest them in the game more deeply, and allow us to improve the game and ecosystem ourselves. True, the LotRO community hasn't put out resources like the site you point to for WoW, but how much of that is because many of those that could do such a thing aren't willing to invest that kind of time and effort without a more powerful/stable/supported API/data platform?

Why put in the effort if your ability to leverage it is minimal? Ask 20 plugin devs about their plugins and you'll hear more about what they wanted to do with their plugins but couldn't (or couldn't do right, or had to hack a solution for and then have to fix after every other game update), than what they did do. You're an example of someone who tried and is now moving on, at least partly because of frustrations with these limitations. How many other capable people that play or have played this game never even tried, for these reasons? I'm one. I think the community is out there, willing to engage more deeply...it's just the chicken-before-the-egg problem....

Even the lack of response to Dwamur's call-to-arms, though I think it deserves its own thread here and on the official forums, doesn't mean much. I'm not sure how many people that would be interested are even still watching. I only happened across this thread while looking for plugin updates. I could and would participate in such an effort, but until I hear about major upgrades to the API, I'm just not paying much attention. Chicken/egg.

[Digital_Utopia]

Some of us are just venting, to be sure...hijacking your thread to an extent to make a point. If we didn't like the game, we obviously wouldn't be here either. Completely agree with your barking cat metaphor. Apart from the API, I'm actually perfectly willing to accept the game for what it is, and isn't, feature-wise, knowing that Turbine will continue to slowly evolve and expand it, both in terms of pure content and minor features/capabilities. You'll never hear me whining about this or that missing game feature...like you said, it is what it is.

I do see the plugin/API platform a bit differently though - this is Turbine's opportunity to engage the community, to invest them in the game more deeply, and allow us to improve the game and ecosystem ourselves. True, the LotRO community hasn't put out resources like the site you point to for WoW, but how much of that is because many of those that could do such a thing aren't willing to invest that kind of time and effort without a more powerful/stable/supported API/data platform?

Why put in the effort if your ability to leverage it is minimal? Ask 20 plugin devs about their plugins and you'll hear more about what they wanted to do with their plugins but couldn't (or couldn't do right, or had to hack a solution for and then have to fix after every other game update), than what they did do. You're an example of someone who tried and is now moving on, at least partly because of frustrations with these limitations. How many other capable people that play or have played this game never even tried, for these reasons? I'm one. I think the community is out there, willing to engage more deeply...it's just the chicken-before-the-egg problem....

Even the lack of response to Dwamur's call-to-arms, though I think it deserves its own thread here and on the official forums, doesn't mean much. I'm not sure how many people that would be interested are even still watching. I only happened across this thread while looking for plugin updates. I could and would participate in such an effort, but until I hear about major upgrades to the API, I'm just not paying much attention. Chicken/egg.

While I'm certainly not underestimating the value of plugins - it's important not to overestimate them either. Content will, in almost all cases, have a lot more value than plugins - and the plugin system is nowhere near as robust, and likely due to its implementation, never will be, robust enough in order to do so. So if it's a case of manpower - where those devs are too busy working on content to provide more in terms of API, then there's not much that can be done about that. Short of, begging WB to hire more devs.

And really, at least in my opinion, that's the real issue here. It's not that LotRO isn't solid enough to not gain an advantage from attention to these extra features; but rather that they simply don't have the manpower to make them more than side projects. Hopefully RoR is a hit, and earns Turbine some extra help in the dev department - because that's the only way I see plugins and the data API getting the attention and organization that it demands.

[Sethladan]

For what it's worth, it sure seems like Turbine/WB is trying to expand their development team. 38 open positions in Needham, Massachusetts, free Turbine Points for retweeting their job listings link, and free iPad 3s if you manage to recruit engineers for them. I'm just hoping they still have space when I finish my CS degree, heh.

I dunno what the LotRO forums are like, but I see the wiki here on LotroInterface and it sure seems like community activism in fully documenting the API, workarounds, bugs, and example code is lacking. I'm guilty here, too, of course.

[K1R4D3L]

Agree, plugins can't solve world hunger or anything, but using the term loosely, I do think they can do a lot to build enthusiasm for the game, as well as resolve many player frustrations, allowing Turbine to deprioritize those things and focus on new features/content.

I dream of being able to have my iPad up beside my monitor, tracking my quests/goals/deeds and plotting/following my course on a map, researching items and crafting recipes, managing alts, reviewing storage, etc., all without cluttering the UI. It would even keep me connected to the game when I'm not able to actually play. If I could show something that cool to friends/coworkers, I know we'd have more active players in very short order. Now, I'm not asking Turbine to create such an app, though that would be awesome if they did it right, but I would definitely be willing to sink way too much of my personal time into it if Turbine would only make it feasible, with well-supported, stable APIs, and I know I'm not alone in that.

*shrug* I'm a dreamer...the realities of business usually do nothing but frustrate me. :p Seems like a good investment to me, but what do I know about Turbine's business model?

[Digital_Utopia]

Agree, plugins can't solve world hunger or anything, but using the term loosely, I do think they can do a lot to build enthusiasm for the game, as well as resolve many player frustrations, allowing Turbine to deprioritize those things and focus on new features/content.

I dream of being able to have my iPad up beside my monitor, tracking my quests/goals/deeds and plotting/following my course on a map, researching items and crafting recipes, managing alts, reviewing storage, etc., all without cluttering the UI. It would even keep me connected to the game when I'm not able to actually play. If I could show something that cool to friends/coworkers, I know we'd have more active players in very short order. Now, I'm not asking Turbine to create such an app, though that would be awesome if they did it right, but I would definitely be willing to sink way too much of my personal time into it if Turbine would only make it feasible, with well-supported, stable APIs, and I know I'm not alone in that.

*shrug* I'm a dreamer...the realities of business usually do nothing but frustrate me. :p Seems like a good investment to me, but what do I know about Turbine's business model?

Oh I completely agree there - I'd simply love to see something like WoW remote for LotRO, a 3D model viewer to view your character, have the lorebook show you exactly what a piece of gear looks like, a plugin that allows you to "dress up" your character, and tells you where you can get that gear/cosmetic, a mobile and/or web app that shows every last bit of data about your character - including deeds, recipes, all stats, your LI stats, etc. Even a 3D zone map that allows you to see exactly where a quest objective is. Every last one of these things are possible (if not already exist) for WoW, and it would certainly improve interest and depth in the game if these things were possible for LotRO as well.

I just can't fairly blame Turbine for not jumping on this, unless I know for sure that they had the resources to do so and chose not to

[Eili]

Well i am just a little voice here, but i wish you the best in which way you decide to go. You deserve it.

You were always helpfull and respectuous towards us, and i thank you for this.

Life is what you are doing of it, your time to fly away from Lotro is arrived and you will find probably new heavens. Enjoy them.


Eili aka Moranae

[moebius92]

Kiradel,

I hear your argument. You're saying "take one dev, or half a dev, and devote her to API improvement until U7. We'll take it from there."

Okay. That's a good argument. Now - let me take this seriously and ask: How can something come of it? Is the plugin author community coherent enough to act on this vision?

One possible action would be a marketing drive. Create a website, with content created by plugin authors, that acts as marketing. "Here is what we have done. Isn't it cool? Here's what we could do. It's even better! We'll do it for free. We need you, Turbine, to do this" (and "this" should link to a page with highly detailed, highly technical action items that a manager can give to a dev to implement immediately).

Then, once the site has been up for a while and has good, engaging content, including humorous videos - keep in mind, this would be a marketing effort, so it has to be light-hearted and positive - set a day during which plugin authors will advertise in-game. Plugins will already have been coded to display a message in chat when they start on that day, and every hour thereafter (details TBD, provided you can get date/time from the API and the community doesn't come up with something better), to the effect of "we are ready to make this game even funner and more full of bacon, for free! Turbine, do your part and enable us to do this. www.moarbacon.org".

How about it, plugin authors? Is this a bunch of trollshaw lynxes that cannot be herded under any circumstances, or can the authoring community rally behind a marketing push?

I'm probably biased, since I've only had limited experience with modding communities (mostly WoW, and some single player games), but one thing that struck me about the WoW plugin community (when I briefly rejoined WoW at the start of Cataclysm) was a bunch of plugins saying, "we no longer use the incoming healing library" or "we no longer use the threat library" - and the reason was, Blizzard had finally gotten around to adding that functionality to the API. But the plugin authors weren't waiting around for Blizzard to add the functionality, they went off and hacked it in, and people would use the tools even if they were crude or weren't perfectly accurate. And it wouldn't surprise me if that was the sort of signal to the UI devs that you're looking for - that, there's this crude tool, and it's horrible and inaccurate, but people are using it because they really want the functionality, and they'll grab at anything that provides it, no matter how badly it works.

So, I think the challenge to us, as plugin authors, is - use the functionality they've provided to the fullest (I mean, there's my plugin handling fellowship/raid vitals, and that's it. And it's being written by someone that doesn't understand the design philosophy behind what's probably the most popular set of WoW raid vitals in existence - which is kind of funny from my end, but probably less funny from the user's end). Go off and write something that the API doesn't explicitly support. Or better yet, write something that people are going to say, "you can't write a plugin that does X" - write a threat meter, write an equipment manger, write a skill cooldown tracker. And if you do that? ...well, at the very least, it'll give the devs a signal of what unimplemented features there's a demand for. At the best? Incentive - "that's what people who are willing to put the effort in wnat, and if I implement this, I can give it to them", inspiration - "imagine what they could do if they had more access, had a more expansive API?", and satisfaction - "look at what they've done with the things I've added to the API."

I mean, I'm too lazy to do that, because quite frankly, it sounds like work and effort and bunch of other tedious stuff, but if you want to send a signal to the devs - that's how I'd go about it.

[Digital_Utopia]

Well i am just a little voice here, but i wish you the best in which way you decide to go. You deserve it.

You were always helpfull and respectuous towards us, and i thank you for this.

Life is what you are doing of it, your time to fly away from Lotro is arrived and you will find probably new heavens. Enjoy them.


Eili aka Moranae

Thank you :) I've had a lot of good experiences, good memories, and good times in LotRO, and I'll never forget them. This bridge hasn't been burned, so if the glitter should fade from where I am, and time has lessened my frustrations, there's always the chance to cross that bridge again. :)

I'm probably biased, since I've only had limited experience with modding communities (mostly WoW, and some single player games), but one thing that struck me about the WoW plugin community (when I briefly rejoined WoW at the start of Cataclysm) was a bunch of plugins saying, "we no longer use the incoming healing library" or "we no longer use the threat library" - and the reason was, Blizzard had finally gotten around to adding that functionality to the API. But the plugin authors weren't waiting around for Blizzard to add the functionality, they went off and hacked it in, and people would use the tools even if they were crude or weren't perfectly accurate. And it wouldn't surprise me if that was the sort of signal to the UI devs that you're looking for - that, there's this crude tool, and it's horrible and inaccurate, but people are using it because they really want the functionality, and they'll grab at anything that provides it, no matter how badly it works.

So, I think the challenge to us, as plugin authors, is - use the functionality they've provided to the fullest (I mean, there's my plugin handling fellowship/raid vitals, and that's it. And it's being written by someone that doesn't understand the design philosophy behind what's probably the most popular set of WoW raid vitals in existence - which is kind of funny from my end, but probably less funny from the user's end). Go off and write something that the API doesn't explicitly support. Or better yet, write something that people are going to say, "you can't write a plugin that does X" - write a threat meter, write an equipment manger, write a skill cooldown tracker. And if you do that? ...well, at the very least, it'll give the devs a signal of what unimplemented features there's a demand for. At the best? Incentive - "that's what people who are willing to put the effort in wnat, and if I implement this, I can give it to them", inspiration - "imagine what they could do if they had more access, had a more expansive API?", and satisfaction - "look at what they've done with the things I've added to the API."

I mean, I'm too lazy to do that, because quite frankly, it sounds like work and effort and bunch of other tedious stuff, but if you want to send a signal to the devs - that's how I'd go about it.

There are modding communities that have been created - and have prospered, without any developer help at all. Grand Theft Auto and Need For Speed seems to come to mind the most - but in these cases, there were no editing tools, no API, or so much as a hint from a dev. Everything was figured out by those interested in not only adding their own stuff - but the basic desire to see how things work.

In the case of MMOs, it's a little bit different obviously - as technically speaking, you really can't add anything to the game itself. However, finding out how stuff works definitely still applies, and, of course, addons/plugins are the closest thing to adding new stuff. While I haven't really looked into WoW addons, the general feeling I get, is that these libraries are mainly for making things easier for other authors. It's important to note that the major difference between WoW and LotRO when it comes to this, is that even core UI elements are done the same way as addons are in WoW. Obviously there are some functions/API that are off limits to addons; but generally speaking, players create their UI elements using the same methods that Blizzard does. With LotRO, the plugin system is a completely separate entity - with the client modified to communicate with this system. While this greatly reduces the chances of Exploits and botting, it also makes the system require more effort on part of the developer, and limits the power of plugins to only what's been added to that system.

So while it may be unrealistic to pull off a healing library, or a threat library - it is certainly possible to create libraries that make other author's jobs easier. One of the best tips I can give any plugin developer is to not limit yourself to just what the API appears to allow. Between the basic elements of the API, and the power of Lua, there is a lot there that is possible - as long as it doesn't require game data. As examples I can point to the UI library I created, Palantir's bars/color change, and even that raycasting example - all done using nothing but Lua and the base UI class. Other experiments I've done - some which I may still clean up and release, when I find the time/energy, is an XML parser, and the beginnings of a method to parse XML into a UI layout. All that stuff, I think - shows the power of what the API started off with, along with the Lua scripting language.

However, at the end of the day - you can only show so many examples of what could be done, before you're stuck asking when Turbine is going to make this have more of a point. In that end, for better or worse, plugin authors are at the mercy of Turbine.

As far as file formats go of course, I really would like to see players that have had experience in recognizing and understanding various unknown file formats. There's already an app that will extract the contents of a .dat file, and of course textures and audio is fairly easy. However, stuff like filenames, 3d meshes, the world terrain/buildings, and even the local database files that keep local information are far from being figured out - as I'm nowhere near proficient enough in 3d formats to get anything worthwhile out of them,

But, hopefully someday that type of person does come along, and wishes to help out - and then things can really start getting interesting.

[moebius92]

In the case of MMOs, it's a little bit different obviously - as technically speaking, you really can't add anything to the game itself. However, finding out how stuff works definitely still applies, and, of course, addons/plugins are the closest thing to adding new stuff. While I haven't really looked into WoW addons, the general feeling I get, is that these libraries are mainly for making things easier for other authors. It's important to note that the major difference between WoW and LotRO when it comes to this, is that even core UI elements are done the same way as addons are in WoW. Obviously there are some functions/API that are off limits to addons; but generally speaking, players create their UI elements using the same methods that Blizzard does. With LotRO, the plugin system is a completely separate entity - with the client modified to communicate with this system. While this greatly reduces the chances of Exploits and botting, it also makes the system require more effort on part of the developer, and limits the power of plugins to only what's been added to that system.

This is wrong. The functionality to track threat? Didn't exist. Someone went out, figured out here's how much threat each skill generates. They figured out anything that could modify that threat. Then they watched everything - what talents you have, what buffs you have, what equipment you've got on, what skills you used, and they guessed - here's how much threat you've generated on the target. And that was the threat meter.

And then later on? Blizzard figured out - oh, our players would like to know how much threat they've got on a mob. Let's add it into the API. And then those threat libraries got deprecated. But it was the players leading the way. They didn't wait for Blizzard to expose those game mechanics to the API. They just went out and wrote it in.

[Digital_Utopia]

This is wrong. The functionality to track threat? Didn't exist. Someone went out, figured out here's how much threat each skill generates. They figured out anything that could modify that threat. Then they watched everything - what talents you have, what buffs you have, what equipment you've got on, what skills you used, and they guessed - here's how much threat you've generated on the target. And that was the threat meter.

And then later on? Blizzard figured out - oh, our players would like to know how much threat they've got on a mob. Let's add it into the API. And then those threat libraries got deprecated. But it was the players leading the way. They didn't wait for Blizzard to expose those game mechanics to the API. They just went out and wrote it in.

Then I stand corrected. However, it is worth pointing out that in order to create some form of treat meter in LotRO, we'd have to have some way of detecting when a skill was fired. With enough experimentation, some value could be attached to various healing/threat/damage skills, (de)buffs, as well as the amount of healing/damage done. As of now of course, using this formula to create some form of meter, would be impossible - considering there is no way to react to skills being fired - most notably skills that do not do any healing or damage, but just generate threat.

[moebius92]

Then I stand corrected. However, it is worth pointing out that in order to create some form of treat meter in LotRO, we'd have to have some way of detecting when a skill was fired. With enough experimentation, some value could be attached to various healing/threat/damage skills, (de)buffs, as well as the amount of healing/damage done. As of now of course, using this formula to create some form of meter, would be impossible - considering there is no way to react to skills being fired - most notably skills that do not do any healing or damage, but just generate threat.

Ummm... no.

For example, take Shield-taunt which is the only guardian skill I can think of that is purely threat (Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance both have debuffs). In my combat, I get messages like "<name> scored a hit with Shield-taunt on the Foraging Brown-bear." Which makes sense, since there's also miss and resist messages - so you can use it to track frequency of outcomes on your skills. Heck, you can track it against specific target types.

In fact, I think the only way to use a skill and not have to generate some sort of foot print in the combat log is to use a AoE skill with no targets in range. And in that case, you can track the power drop or the morale drop. So... if you've got a skill that has no power cost or morale cost, and it's AoE, and you use it with no targets in range, then yes. There will be absolutely no sign that it was ever used. Of course, it probably has no effect, and I'm not sure there actually are any skills that meet that criteria, but other than that, those skills can be missed.

[Digital_Utopia]

Ummm... no.

For example, take Shield-taunt which is the only guardian skill I can think of that is purely threat (Fray the Edge and Litany of Defiance both have debuffs). In my combat, I get messages like "<name> scored a hit with Shield-taunt on the Foraging Brown-bear." Which makes sense, since there's also miss and resist messages - so you can use it to track frequency of outcomes on your skills. Heck, you can track it against specific target types.

In fact, I think the only way to use a skill and not have to generate some sort of foot print in the combat log is to use a AoE skill with no targets in range. And in that case, you can track the power drop or the morale drop. So... if you've got a skill that has no power cost or morale cost, and it's AoE, and you use it with no targets in range, then yes. There will be absolutely no sign that it was ever used. Of course, it probably has no effect, and I'm not sure there actually are any skills that meet that criteria, but other than that, those skills can be missed.

Ok then, I wasn't aware that skills that didn't do damage showed up in the log. I guess the only thing in the way is figuring out a value for each skill that would affect threat, so a threat list could be created. But that's a whole lot of trial and error involved.

[Snoopy81]

I took over Palantir's development in May 2012.

I already added some new features and fixed some annoyances.
You may find Palantir v2.x in "LotRO Patches" section:
Palantir v2 branch (http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info743-Palantirv2.10beta1bySnoopy.html)

Before releasing v2.0 here I tried to e-Mail at [email protected], but no answer came ( as often with msn mails ).
Now, as releasing a v2.10 with all new features I'm trying a post here.

[moebius92]

So, I think the challenge to us, as plugin authors, is - use the functionality they've provided to the fullest (I mean, there's my plugin handling fellowship/raid vitals, and that's it. And it's being written by someone that doesn't understand the design philosophy behind what's probably the most popular set of WoW raid vitals in existence - which is kind of funny from my end, but probably less funny from the user's end). Go off and write something that the API doesn't explicitly support. Or better yet, write something that people are going to say, "you can't write a plugin that does X" - write a threat meter, write an equipment manger, write a skill cooldown tracker. And if you do that? ...well, at the very least, it'll give the devs a signal of what unimplemented features there's a demand for. At the best? Incentive - "that's what people who are willing to put the effort in wnat, and if I implement this, I can give it to them", inspiration - "imagine what they could do if they had more access, had a more expansive API?", and satisfaction - "look at what they've done with the things I've added to the API."

Quoting myself, because why not?

I'd like to note that I've written two plugins which I'd consider to have pushed the envelope of what the plugin system can do:

1. DPSMeter - The unsupported thing was reading the total amount of damage done from the combat log. These days, we have the ability to read from the chat pane, and any basic DPS meter can read the combat log directly, without using external scripts.

2. SkillInfo - This plugin uses the combat log, changes in the player's power, and key presses and quickslot clicks to identify when a skill is used. It also has all of the skill cooldown times coded in, although that requires some configuration on the users part (to indicate legacies on LIs and their trait setup), allowing you to track skill cooldowns. With the additions to the API that are coming with RoR, we should now be able to track most skill uses directly, via their reset time.

I'm not arrogant enough to believe that these things are getting implemented because I went out and wrote a plugin that did it first (And that speaks more to the amount of arrogance needed, and not how arrogant I am. Because quite frankly? I'm incredibly arrogant.), but I do want to point out that going out trying to push the envelope is always rewarding. Sometimes pushing the envelope just results in a mangled envelope. And sometimes it results in a bigger envelope. But I think it is always worth doing. And the rewards? Sometimes the reward is in what you learn, sometimes the reward is in what you accomplish, and sometimes the reward is in the knowledge that now you can go back and do it right.